Dear all, who took part in discussion of the topic "What language to choose for transliteration",
I've noticed that you do care about the Ukrainian language, but it seems that you care ONLY about the language.

My regards and many thanks to Marie, who posted:

"... I agree with all of the comments about the need to use accepted transliterations...But, I don't think we should dismiss the service ForUm provides. English real-time news is rare from Ukraine.

... Again, I don't want to condemn everything with one swoop, because I see the great number of positives that this site provides. I hope they'll pay more attention to the transliteration issue, and do more news originally in Ukrainian, but let's not discourage they're efforts!"

The key word of the post is "News". Marie is the first person, who paid attention to the news. And, unfortunately, most of you do not care about it. The only problem for you is correct transliteration, but not events in the country. There is a good example [en.for-ua.com]. There is a human trafficking in Ukraine, but people cares only one letter (Kharkov or Kharkiv).

My special address to Borys (Australia), who posted:

"...Dear Ed, wake up to yourself because if you have not learned in 14 years, then maybe its time for you lie down and exit this world, as only vegetables don't learn!! Slawa Ukraini!, Slawa Heroyam!"

Dear Borys (Australia), I am not going to die or disappear, or "exit this world". It is not you who decide this. You should remember that Editor is a human (not vegetable). And humans have emotions, as a result humans can be upset and be hurt. The worst thing for you, dear Borys (Australia) is that Editor is a woman. So, the offended woman tells you to SHUP UP, GO TO HELL and EXIT THIS SITE.

Dear Svitlanka and Ihor Nedoshytko,

Don't you understand that the Russian language in Ukraine has nothing to do with politics, I mean ordinary people, who speak Russian, not political forces. The one thing I can not understand - why do you hate Russia.

Charles de Goll said: Patriotism is when love for the Motherland is first of all, and nationalism is when hatred for all the other is first of all.

With such attitute to the neighbouring country you are far from patriotism.

Dear Petro, who posted:

"Your "English page staff and editor" must go, and replaced by someone who understands that Ukrain's language and culture..."

You do not pay me my salary, so do not make the desicions which are beyond your competence.

Dear Anthony and Alex, thanks for the moral support.

Dear Jurij, who has problems with the Ukrainian version of ForUm,

There are only two sections in Russian. And it is not me, who is responsible for such policy. If you are interested in news, enjoy them in Ukrainian. (You are interested in news about Ukraine, aren't you?). If you want some entertainments, please choose other sources, as ForUm does not specialize in it. As for the "press" section, we post foreign articles there. For your peace of mind, please read these articles in original.

Regards,
Editor





Edited 1 times. Last edit at 12/23/05 02:23PM by Moderator.

Language is an emotive subject. Whether the adoption of Ukranian as the official state language is patriotic (we are Ukranian) or nationalistic (we are not Russian) depends on the mindset and motivation of individual.

There are valid arguments for having one state language. Canada and Belgium have two: this situaution is just about tolerable. But within the territory of Ukraine many languages are spoken. Leaving aside debates about which form of Ukranian to adopt, the state legislature could issue its edicts in Russian and Ukranian, but what about all the other languages? No, one language - Ukranian - is the logical choice.

But, patriots, look to your country's future. You cannot afford to turn your back on the FSU, nor is your place in the EU by any means certain. Language is the key to international business. One language - Russian - unlocks the whole of the FSU. But if you want to trade with EU there is no one common language. Will you all learn English, French, German, Spanish and a collection of Scandanavian languages? You don't need to - Russian is taught in many schools in the EU. But as Nicholas and I have discovered, it is quite impossible in general to find Ukranian classes or textbooks.

So while I encourage you to re-learn your ancient tongue, and I understand the emotional need to reject those aspects of Stalinist policy which were forced upon you - among them collective farming, your native language and the famous H - I urge you not to over-react and dismiss the Russian language. Continue to learn it and use or face global isolation and poverty. Keep this in mind, not petty arguments which lead nowhere.

To the editor, yes, the english translations are attrocious, butthey are infinitely better than no news at all. Please, continue with your excellent work.

In my humble opinion FORUM is a very good news site, unfortunately the English forum element is not used enough, but I am sure that will change with time.
At the moment in Ukraine many issues are emotional and therefore lack real substance, however Ukraine is very new to democracy therefore I can fully understand the emotional aspect.
However there are some very encouraging signs with regards to the economy which are developing, one in particular could help to shelter the Ukrainians from a developing world economic crisis.
Also to be very honest regardless of whom wins the next election if Ukraine has in place such organisations as FORUM who report the truth and allow it to be debated then the Government will have to be held accountable and democracy will prevail

Dear Eidtor:

I read and speak Ukrainian and English fluently. I am 45 years old and I was born and raised as a Canadian of Ukrainian heritage. My life as a Canadian is precious to me but it would be somewhat hollow without my Ukrainian roots. My childhood was filled with pleasant and enlightening activities that involved Ukrainian schools, scouting, music, sports, etc. Later in life I studied Ukrainian at two universities in Toronto, visited Ukraine for both business and pleasure, and now have the joy of raising three children in a similar way to that which I have had the good fortune of experiencing. For what it's worth, I believe I understand (as best as one in my position can) the political and cultural issues plaguing Ukraine today. One thing of which I am sure is my position from which to comment on how Ukrainian interacts with English.

Having said that, you must understand that a nation's language is in some ways above all else, for what is a nation without its own set of letters, words, phrases, lyrics, stories, publications, etc.? Furthermore, Ukraine has had much of its character injured and stolen, destroyed and murdered. Language has always been the starting point to recovery.

When you say "I've noticed that you do care about the Ukrainian language, but it seems that you care ONLY about the language." ... that is not accurate! One must learn to crawl before one may walk, one must learn to eat before one may nourish oneself, one must learn to speak before one may communicate. The better one learns a mature, common language within one's territory, the better one's life may be.

Ukrainians must know the difference between "Kharkiv" and "Kharkov" and ForUm along with its staff has a responsibility to its readers to inform its readers of such a difference. I often refer my non-Ukrainian friends and associates to your English-language area. I would like them to know that they can potentially help victims of "human trafficking" in, for example, the Ukrainian city of "Kharkiv". I would like there to be no ambiguity when they read about "Kharkiv" instead of some city that afterwards may be erroneously sought in Russia - one that they may have read as "Kharkov".

God bless Russia, its legitimate territory and language. God help Ukraine regain that which the Soviets ruined.

Finally, as editor, you have a responsibility to inform objectively and, where applicable, to analyze subjectively. You have no right to denigrate and berate your readers. You and your publication are reduced to "technological ones and zeros" without the readers. They might disrespect you but disrespect is best fought with credibility. An editor should never take the readers personally.

Best of success to ForUm. Na vse dobre,

Andrij (alias Bukva Ge)

Dear Editor,

To claim that those exhorting you to a higher literary standard care only about language is a straw man argument that ignores the real issue.

Andrij is right, a professional editor does not take reader comments personally. The attacks aren't personal. They can't possibly be, as few if any of us here knows you or each other! A professional can take criticism, admit fault, correct it and go on. Of course, like the all-too-many sloppy editors in the west, you are free to ignore calls to excellence in journalism. Just be aware that you are not helping to raise journalistic standards, nor encouraging the world to take Ukrainians seriously.

As for accusing readers of "hating Russia" that is another lame straw man argument. Few would deny hating Russification, but that is something altogether different. It is akin to "loving the sinner, hating the sin." I'm sure all of us would be happy to see Ukraine and Russia be friends ... on an equal footing.

Diaspora Ukrainians, and many indigenous Ukrainians, obviously would like to see the inanities and damage of Russification reversed, and for Ukrainians and their language to resume their rightful place in the international community. Those who object to the perpetuation of silly Soviet style transliteration are merely calling for a higher standard of professionalism.

I appreciate that you prefer "substance over style" and truly do sympathize. It does seem incredibly superficial, but packaging (in strict marketing terms) is so important these days. If for no other reason than that poor "packaging" simply detracts from the "product." In the case of Soviet transliteration, it distracts the reader from the core message. This thread is evidence of that!

I hope you will take what has been written here as "constructive criticism" rather than personal attacks. In-fighting is very counter-productive and we should be mature enough by now to avoid it. At the very least, I hope you will soon come to recongnize that all this attention to your arguments means that we do indeed care about more than just "language." We wouldn't bother writing to you if we didn't. ;-)

I used to read ForUm in Ukrainian until I became disillusioned with the use of Russian on the Ukrainian pages. The only reason that I came back was that one of the news services pointed to the letter of I. Bardyn and to your reply. I guess that it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I have seen on a Russian news program that when a person spoke in Ukrainian the announcer gave an online translation into Russian while blanking out the Ukrainian. On Ukrainian programs I hear the Russian directly given. Something is amiss in this scenario.

It bothers me to see a nation with its own language being so deviously manipulated. This is evident in the press, book publishing, television, radio and computers.

In the Ukrainian press one often sees quotations and sections in Russian. It used to be that even the words of Stalin and Lenin were translated into Ukrainian. Not now, in the supposedly free Ukraine.

Over the last 14 years of an independent Ukraine the numbers of books in Ukrainian has been greatly reduced. More people read in Russian than in Ukrainian. This was not so 14 years ago. There used to be great magazines with vast subscriber lists which now are lucky if they put out a measely 1000 copies. On the main book market in Kyiv, it is virtually impossible to find books in Ukrainian among what I would think over a hundred sellers.

On a supposedly Ukrainian speaking television station which states that it is transmitting in the Ukranian language there are large intervals in only Russian. When children come home from school the majority of programming is in Russian. To me this is a crime.

Computer systems in Ukraine are mainly in Russian. Even during the Children of Chenobyl summer camp, computer appreciation was given on computers which had Russian interfaces.

I think that one can go on and on. So when I see the ForUm Ukrainian pages having content in Russian while on the Russian pages there is no Ukrainian, I do get a little Red. Does someone translate only from Ukrainian into Russian and not the reverse. If it is a Ukrainian page then get rid of the Russian parts.

I also see this editor accusing some correspondents of hating Russia and not understanding the reason. I do not have any hate to Russia or Russians but I do have a strong dislike to people who consider you a low life if you speak to them in Ukrainian. This I experienced personally in Kyiv recently. Some people do not want to serve you if you speak to them in Ukrainian. They speak to you in Russian and say they do not understand. So what do you do in such instances. Do you kiss them on the cheek? Young relatives of mine went to southern Ukraine and say that they do not want to ever want go back there as they were harrassed for speaking in Ukrainian. Does this give you some incling as to what the problem might be.

It pains me greatly to see this happening in my homeland and people closing their eye to what is no less than a systematic and slow extermination of the Ukrainian language and people. Once you lose the language the rest will follow. My parents escaped the onslaught of the Soviet army during the second world war. If they had not then I think that I would have perished in the far north as many of my relatives did. They strove to keep the Ukrainian heritage alive in this far land and they succeeded. Now fifty years later based on the actions in the homeland I wonder if their fight was worth the sacrifices that they made.

I think that it is time to step back and take a critical look at what is happening and what is to be done in the future. These considerations have to be taken in any business dealings with Ukrainian counterparts. For it seems that in this day and age money talks.

Regards from Canada

Ukrainian language – the third official?

[www.pravda.com.ua]

Dear Editor,

You're welcome, and I do think we need to be careful not to focus one the language issue while ignoring the product (which here is English-language news). I've always found your site informative and very useful.

I won't comment again on the original transliteration issue, or the discussion of the Russian versus Ukrainian pages, since I've previously noted my support for Ukrainian transliterated names.

I do want to say, however, that I think it's a wonderful thing that this debate has been allowed to continue and grow. I have a relative who works as a newspaper editor in the US and she was amazed at the fact that (1) the editor responded in such depth to a letter received, and (2) the editor remained involved in the debate on the forum.

As I've noted, I do agree with the need for proper transliteration, but I have to recognize the fact that this debate has flourished, when it did not have to be allowed to do so.

The language issue is an emotional one, and sometimes provokes seemingly exxagerated responses that don't necessarily take into account the whole picture. In the US, we see this with English versus Spanish. The whole picture of the ForUm site for me is a very good one. Nothing is perfect, but nothing is all bad, either.

Regards all!

Dear Editor, I was very surprised to read your reply to my article. Wow were you, and maybe still are, very upset. My article was not written to upset but rather to make or drive a point home! Please note that I used the words "than maybe". In other words I was speaking figuratively to make that point. In fact I have on a number of occasions said to my friends that as I am at the senior age bracket I am still learning, because one is never too old to learn, and that if I stop learning than I'll know it's time for me to lay down and exit this world, as I believe that I will than be a vegetable AND MOST PROBABLY a burden to someone. I hope that I have now cleared up my point.

I therefore apologise to you unreservedly if I upset, hurt or offended your emotions, as that certainly was not my objective.

I will however say this though, that this is a superb publication and I take great pleasure in reading it. In fact I look forward to logging on and catching up on the latest news items, as they are very informative and act as a bridge between those English speaking people who have trouble speaking or reading or cannot speak Ukrainian, but are very interested in Ukraine, its people and what is happening there in regards to the latest NEWS items.

Doroha "Editorka" wybach scho ya tebe obrazyw. Ze ne buw myj objektiw.

I wish you and your staff a belated Merry Christmas (Hreko Katolik), a Happy New Year and may 2006 be wonderfull,memorable, healthy and better than 2005.

Sincere and best regards.

Борис

Dear Ed.,
This site is very informative, and it is growing in popularity. Congratulations for your hard work, and good results!

I would like to suggest something that might improve the overall quality of discussion and debate, which involves language. In particular, there is another question, not of transliteration, but of obscenity. I think you've thought about this, a little, because the rules for this forum are very simple:

Quote:
Rules of the forum:

1. Use the English language only, NO transliteration
2. Do not use the obscene language
3. Open and unconcealed advertisement is prohibited

Posts or Messages, which violate the rules, will be deleted

Please respect yourself and other participants of the forum and respect the work of the moderator.

Several people, Chornyvolk in particular, routinely use obscene language, not to mention personal insults against, well, almost everyone. I've studied online forums for ten years. One rule is clear. One of the best ways to ruin an otherwise useful forum is to allow personal, obscene insults.

You have a very small handful of people in this forum who seem to live here for the primary purpose of insulting other people -- and usually in violation of the minimal, three simple rules for this forum. Why do you allow this? Do you secretly support it? Do you know that it greatly reduces the credibility of this forum for more thoughtful people? Why do you tolerate hooligans, who can't even respect three simple rules? Mr. Chornyvolk, for example, recently posted a TOPIC that was an obscene insult against Tom. It was NOT just a message, it was an ENTIRE TOPIC.

Go to any respectable establishement in Ukraine and watch what happens if hooligans come in and start assaulting other people. Just for example. You get the point, I'm sure.

Please consider these things, while you consider other things about language use here.

Thank you!

Best wishes from Kharkiv/Kharkov

And while you are at it editor check what this yank inbred said to me on the same thread I quoted it.Also how people on this forum refer to Russians as scum and pigs.If that is acceptable to you then so should be my responses to the stinking yank shit that pollutes this forum with their garbage lies.

here is an example of his posts

Posted by: USA pride (IP Logged) • Posts:
Date: April 2, 2006 07:14PM


Chornyshit. I can see when Tom writes it gets you very mad. Without replying to any of your threads he gets under your skin when you see his name. He gets to you very much and for that I am very happy. I like to see that my American brother bothers you and he does not say anything to you. Maybe that gets you more mad that he does not reply to your shit mouth. Maybe that is why your momma call you chorny because when she give birth to you she said you look like chorny shit. We do not need people like your kind on the forum. Maybe me and Tom will go to see your momma and rip off your momma's head and spit in her neck and then put stick and use her to clean all the shit that comes out of your mouth you Russian fat pig for brains. Then we tell her we do this for giving birth to you. Then we look for your poppa and put the stick up his ass and put it in the middle of kitchen garden to scare away crows and tell him he's a pig for giving birth to you. Now you can see that your kind is not wanted here and that you are not the only one that can talk like you do. We do not want to because we want to use are brains for better things like talk serious about our Ukraine that you hate so much. You can talk about how bad it is because you live in Canada and you don't suffer like Ukrainians and Russians live. Maybe if you live like they do you do not talk shit. You are nothing but a sorry example of what is wrong in this world. It is people like you that make it bad for other people. We will celebrate that day when somebody tells us that you and your shit familia have all gone to hell. Tell burn for ever you disgusting fat bag of shit. Maybe by me writing this the editor will put an end to people like you on this forum. There are good Russians and Russian scum. You are a Russian scum Russian scum Russian scum Russian scum. Sleep with that in your head tonight. How you let Tom get to you. "Say hello to my American friend

The above post attributed to "USA pride" is atrocious. To Chorny, if this is the sort of thing that sets you off, ya panamayu (sorry for the transliteration, dear Editor, but if you're going allow any of your rules to be broken, it's logical that you must allow ALL of them to be broken. Would someone now please post purely commercial reklama stuff, so all rules are broken?)

If there's any chance that this forum can be led to follow its own rules, so that we can at least be polite and respectful even when we strenuously disagree, this forum has a future. Otherwise, it will descend to nothing but the equivalent of a bar on a dark side street that nobody pays much attention to.

Editor, you've gotten a free education here. I hope you don't think it's worthless just because it's free. Otherwise, maybe I'll charge you US$200 an hour for future consultations. Deliver the money to assist Ukraine's children in "orphanages" (hell holes), if you don't mind.

Hoping that you'll get a grip,
US_expat
Kharkiv/Kharkov

PS
Please fix the registration algorithm. It's broken, if you don't know. Remont is not difficult. Sorry for another transliteration.